The Greatest Love of All
Posted by Adam Graham in : ChristianitySorry, Whitney, but while loving yourself is easy to achieve, that comes to most of us naturally, it’s not the greatest love of all.
“Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.” John 15:13
And that is certainly not easy to achieve.
For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.–Romans 5:7-10
Sorry, folks, they sang that song at last Saturday’s pro-life rally and this has been burning on my heart ever since. Loving yourself, sure, that’s easy, but loving your enemy, that’s hard.
The gospel of Christ is foolishness to those who are pershing. They accuse us of taking the easy way, but that’s not true. In this culture, It’s easy to believe the lies Satan is passing off as reason and science. It’s easy to look at this fallen world and despair. It’s easy to puff up ourselves and say I don’t need a crutch, I can depend on myself. It takes humility to admit we cannot depend on ourselves and that we do need God.
It takes humility to come to Him as Jesus said we must, as a child.
And the most frightening thing about the Greatest Love of All is this:
“This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.” –Jesus (John 15:12)
And just how did Jesus love us?
He endured a brutal beating with a lovely instrument known as a Cat of Nine Tails that had bits of metal and bone imbeded in the nine “tails” that would tear out hunks of flesh. Many died from this alone. Jesus lost so much blood, the Romans, hardly known for their compassion, had to conscript someone to carry his cross for him.
He then under went an execution so painful they coined a word after it: excruciating. It was the eve of the passover, which was a high sabbath, and the Jews would go into hysterics if the condemned were left on their crosses over the sabbath, so the captain ordered their legs to be broken, so they would die faster. When they reached Jesus, though, they found he was already dead. To make sure of it, one of the soliders took his spear and thrust it through Jesus’ side, up under his ribs, piercing his heart, hence the blood and water that gushed out.
He then was taken down by two of his followers and laid in a borrowed tomb over the double sabbath, not even properly prepared for burial. The women came back after the sabbath to do that and found it unnecessary.
He had rose from the dead.
As Paul first testified, the ressurection was witnessed, “by Cephas, then by the twelve. After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time. For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.” (1 Cor. 15:5-10)
To get back to the point, the greatest love of all was not easy for Christ, and it is not easy for us. This path is not easy, as Jesus said, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.” (Mt 16:24) But, he will walk with us all the way to Calvary and all the way Home.
For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”
Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate. Therefore let us go forth to Him, outside the camp, bearing His reproach. For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come. Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name.
–Heb 13:5, 12-15
Comment by Patriot [Visitor]
What ever happened to the Separate of Church and Blog?
Comment by Patriot [Visitor]
Oops… Separation of Church and Blog, that is.
Comment by Andrea Graham [Member]
a better question would be, “Whatever happened to the freedom of the press?”
Comment by Michael [Visitor]
Wow. You said a mouth full. Let me respond to some of the assertions.
The gospel of Christ is foolishness to those who are pershing. They accuse us of taking the easy way, but that’s not true.
Andrea
The gospel of Christ is not foolishness. It is a valuable resource which can provide much needed encouragement to people who are in need.
As for this :
“In this culture, It’s easy to believe the lies Satan is passing off as reason and science. “
Andrea
Exactly what lies is Satan passing off as science? Would that be all empirical science? Is the devil using the laws of physics to fool me?
As for this :
It’s easy to puff up ourselves and say I don’t need a crutch, I can depend on myself. It takes humility to admit we cannot depend on ourselves and that we do need God
Andrea
Some people do need a crutch at certain times of their lives. When you break a leg you need a wooden one. At other times it may be you mental health which needs an emotional crutch.
As to the crucifixion of Christ and his rising from the dead that is just bad fiction. With most things in life, the obvious explanation is usually the truth. Read any good detective novel such as the Sherlock Holmes stories. Cultures have come to all sorts of crazy conclusions to explain things they didn’t understand. In medieval times carved wooden figures of Jesus would appear to cry. To some this was a sign of divine expression. The reality was that under proper conditions the wood would absorb water and then dispel it. The figure could have just as easily been that of an elephant. Charlatans even back then quickly picked this up to fool a gullible public. There are no miracles just incredible coincidences. Well, except for maybe the 2204 Boston Red Sox.
As for the greatest love of all. It’s the love of a parent for his or her child . Trust me . Satan wouldn’t tell you that.
Comment by Andrea Graham [Member]
Michael: by asserting historical fact is fiction, you are bringing true the scripture I paraphrased in saying the gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing. And in a way you are correct re: parents and the greatest love. Most parents would lay down their lives for their children.
I’m not going to argue with you, Michael. If you really wanted to know the Truth, you would search it out for yourself, with a heart open to the Truth.
Comment by Michael [Visitor]
It’s not an argument. It’s an intellectual debate. As I said before, some people can’t question matters of faith and that’s OK. You made a statement and I questioned it. What lies are being passed off as science by Satan? I need to understand your language to know what you are talking about. You can’t have a meaningful discussion if you expect people to suspend reason and science.
There is a big difference between historical fact and historical conjecture. There are some well known historians who doubt Jesus ever existed. I would disagree with them on that point. We have no way of knowing what passed all these centuries without being altered or corrupted.
Comment by Adam Graham [Member]
As to the love of a parent, Michael, that love is not truly universal. Think about the debate we have in the number of abortions occuring, those who abuse their children.
10When my father and my mother forsake me, then the LORD will take me up.-Psalm 27:10
Comment by Michael [Visitor]
Abuse and neglect is not love. The fact that all parents do not posses this love does not refute the comment I made. God may be the most neglectful and abusive father of all. Remember, millions of babies are aborted by a perfectly healthy body for a variety of reasons. Others are born deformed, retarded, or dead. Nature is not perfect.
Back to my question of science. Are you claiming that Satan is fooling us all with the laws of physics?
Comment by Andrea Graham [Member]
No. God invented gravity. I’m talking the theory of evolution and that sort of thing. A lot of scientists–and historians–set out with an agenda against God. That invalidates their conclusions.
And again, Michael, I concured with you about the love parents by nature possess for their children. A good parent will lay down his life to save his children’s. That’s what Jesus did for us. That’s what he expects his followers to do as well. Thankfully, in America, few of us are called to do so literally.
God didn’t bring death into the world, sin did that. Jesus came and died so we might live forever with Him. Yes, this world is beautiful, God created it that way. I assure you the next is even better. No more pain, no more suffering. All the things atheists complain about, he’s going to do away with. The reason he’s waiting is sheer patience. He desires none should perish but all should come to repentance.
As for the question, why did God allow us to sin? Because he’s pro-choice, too. He just isn’t a respector of persons. He loves the embryo, the fetus, the infant, the toddler, the child, the adolescent, the adult, and the senior citizen all the same, and does not value the life of one above the other.
To understand my assertions about Jesus, you need to understand, I’m not speaking in metaphor when I say I know him. I mean that literally. I’m not talking about like I’ve got his business card or a letter someone else transcribed for him (though I do have a whole book worth of such letters, yes) I mean I know him like I know my husband or my father. Only I talk to Jesus more often than I do Dad. And we have more meaningful conversations, too. Not to be mean to Dad, we just don’t have much of anything in common anymore.
So, how would you react if someone asserted your closest friend didn’t exist, was just a figment of your imagination, a crutch, and that the things they’d told you were true were false? Who would you believe? Your friend or their enemy? What would you conclude?
Comment by Michael [Visitor]
So, how would you react if someone asserted your closest friend didn’t exist, was just a figment of your imagination, a crutch, and that the things they’d told you were true were false?
Andrea
That depends .If I were Elwood P. Dowd I might understand how you feel .
The notion of talking to a dead person and having them respond is something I find out of the realm of possibility. Religions offer this amazing ability to simply suspend all notions of scientific reasoning. My quip about the digital camera was meant to illustrate this idea. If you carry a digital camera you wont be out of film when Jesus next appears to you.
Of course Christianity has an excuse for that. Jesus has special powers which allow him to appear only to those to whom he wishes to show his presence. I may as well believe in fairies.
So the difference is that I would never expect you to believe in my closest friend if I couldn’t show you that he actually existed. Otherwise I might have to accept Elwood P. Dowd’s 6 ft rabbit.
Comment by Andrea Graham [Member]
Jesus isn’t dead, Michael. He’s alive. And all of the apostles were willing to die rather than change their story. No one dies for a lie.
Comment by Michael [Visitor]
No one dies for a lie.
Andrea
We can start with Jonestown and continue up to current events involving terrorism. These are examples which happened during our lives. Well, mine at least. History is replete with many other examples. SO yea. People do die for lies unfortunately
Comment by Andrea Graham [Member]
If they’d heard it second or third hand, you might have a point. These are eye-witnesses that you are challenging, Michael. Not a guy in a movie who talks to a rabbit. We’re talking about Men of sound mind who saw their Master rise from the dead, talked and ate with their Ressurected Lord, and were willing to die for Him.
The least of the apostles, as Saul of Tarsus liked to call himself, was so convinced Christians were spreading a deception he persecuted the church, throwing the brethern in Jail and putting many to death. That’s what he was going to Damascus for.
You can read his testimony for yourself if you like. It’s in Acts. Romans would do you much good too, if you’d dare to risk reading it with an open heart.
But first you have to examine your own heart and admit, to yourself at least, what you’re so afraid of. Are you really just scared by the possiblity there might be things in this universe you don’t understand? That’s what rattles a lot of scientists, at least the ones that aren’t Christians. Time itself is God’s creation and that he’s capable of making it stop, speed up, slow down, etc, has the power to throw all their calculations off. Anything and anyone they can’t pin under a microscope, so to speak, scares the willies out of them.
Comment by Michael [Visitor]
Are you really just scared by the possiblity there might be things in this universe you don’t understand?
Andrea
No. I understand that completely. But with knowledge and science all these things will eventually make sense. Also, I have no reason to fear the theory of God and would have every reason to want to latch on to it. I believe its the end for me when I die. It’s a long dirt nap with the worms eating my dead body. Why wouldn’t I want this wonderful image of heaven? I just can’t toss out logic and reason for my own wants and desires.
I would like to believe I could grow a money tree in the backyard but my brain tells me that notion is ridiculous.
Time itself is God’s creation and that he’s capable of making it stop, speed up, slow down, etc., has the power to throw all their calculations off.
Andrea
There you go again. Superman could do the same thing by flying in the opposite direction of the earths rotation. ( or some such thing) Whenever science trumps logic you folks always resort to the science fiction.
Comment by Michael [Visitor]
We’re talking about Men of sound mind who saw their Master rise from the dead, talked and ate with their Ressurected Lord, and were willing to die for Him.
Andrea
We have no clue how sound these men were. I have read these crazy things a number of times. Since we were not there to witness any of this we can’t KNOW anything. We can accept blindly, Dismiss, or hold to critical thinking. I do the later .
Again, if this gives you solace and comfort to go on in this world keep the faith. I just hate to see people live by the bible and miss out on so many things. Adam and I debated the point of purity here and a bit over at the blend. I am just not willing to let an ancient book and an antiquated culture lead my life or that of the people I love. Get everything you can out of this life for if we don’t pass on to heaven you will have missed out.
Comment by Adam Graham [Member]
First of all, Michael. If you understand this issue, you’ll understand its an issue where first principles come into play.
If there’s a God, what Andrea says makes sense. Its not Science Fiction, its truth. If there’s no God, then what she’s saying is fantasy. It is an issue too big for this blog, particularly comment sections.
I would not waste nor encourage her to waste the space to undertake such an endeavor in earnest. I believe it would be mostly fruitless. You see, Michael, your entire argument centers around the idea that you need evidence that can never be gotten.
Regarding the Apostles, we have their writings, we have their histories that they’ve passed down. When know how they died as well as how they lived. In other places, you’ve demanded the original transcripts, as if after 2000 years, they’d be anywhere to be found.
Is Caesar’s Gallic Wars false because the first manuscript is 1050 years after Caesar wrote it? Do you demand the original manuscript?
The oldest manuscripts of the new Testament are a mere 200-300 years after Christ’s crucifiction.
The issue though is larger than that, longer, broader. This blog was never intended to be an apologetics site. There are many fine ones on the Internet and if you have honest questions, they’ll give you honest answers. You may still disagree with them, but they say is pretty much what Andrea and I will say.
Also, I patently reject your claim that somehow your stand on these issues is a result of your dedication to logic, reasoning, and thinking. Men better than you or I, smarter with greater IQs, equally dedicated to truth and logic have come to differing conclusions.
The reason they’ve come up with different conclusions is the same reason Russ and I do. We view the World in a different way. Your worldview is fundamental. We are all blind men and our Worldview is the glass through which we see the world, others, and the issues of the day, which is why rational people come from issues from different ways.
Finally, I’m weighing closing all comments on Religion Threads. As I said before, we’re not an apologetics site. Our posts are meant to be more devotional or thought-provoking, not debate starters, not sources of contention to rehash thousand year old debates. While I love seeing the comment counter spiral upwards, I’m beginning to doubt whether its productive.
While I respect your right to your opinion, these comments debates have become long, unwieldly monsters that have little to do with the point. They’ve become repetitive and redundant, as its the same debate carried from thread to thread as core issues are never addressed, never considered, and frequently denied. Because of the religion threads being taken over week after week, I’ve been unable to even get anything submitted to the Christian Carnival.
I’ll admit my faith forms who I Am. If I didn’t believe in God, I’d be an entirely different person. My worldview of a God who created us and reigns in justice and righteousness. Its how I fundamentally view the World and it defines what I believe and what is the topic on this blog.
Your claim that you come at the data with no viewpoint, no bias, and no opinion is intellectually dishonest. No one does that. Not you, not me, not anyone on this Earth.
Comment by Michael [Visitor]
A quick response:
I would not waste nor encourage her to waste the space to undertake such an endeavor in earnest. I believe it would be mostly fruitless. You see, Michael, your entire argument centers around the idea that you need evidence that can never be gotten.
Adam
Correct. That’s why I am saying that the history of Jesus as presented by Christianity runs counter to science. My argument indeed does suggest you need empirical evidence to present a cogent argument.
While your argument says you don’t need anything which can be proven. Hence the reason mine is fact based, logical, and grounded in actual science. Bodies rising from the dead and other aspects of Christianity require that you set aside what we know as science and trust in faith. I’m essentially saying don’t believe in the lochess monster or big foot unless you can see something substantial to warrant the existence of such animals.
As for this:
“Regarding the Apostles, we have their writings, we have their histories that they’ve passed down….
Is Caesar’s Gallic Wars false because the first manuscript is 1050 years after Caesar wrote it? “
Adam
Sure. History is replete with examples of corrections. The entire history of the former Soviet Union is being rewritten
As we type. We continue to learn more about ancient cultures as well as more modern ones and this more complete understanding has caused us to reassess many a long held view. This goes back to the very beginnings of mankind.
The old chart from my elementary school which listed the evolution of man has been greatly revised.
You seem frustrated at the dialogue in which Andrea and I are engaging. I do not see my response to the comments made in your blog as counter to the spirit of this medium. I think I have maintained the same kind of decorum displayed by you both here and on other blogs .
And finally:
Your claim that you come at the data with no viewpoint, no bias, and no opinion is intellectually dishonest. No one does that. Not you, not me, not anyone on this Earth.
Adam
You are simply wrong. A scientist must set aside bias to take a critical look at data. An example would be that wooden statue of Christ which appears to cry. A true believer and an atheist can arrive at the same conclusion if they study the data .
Comment by Andrea Graham [Member]
Michael, you’re sinking in quicksand and waving up at the rock I’m standing on and saying, “Dive right in, the water’s fine!”
With as much love as possible, baloney. There’s pleasure in sin for a season, even the bible admits that, but as you’ve admitted, the end there of is death. You keep insisting it’s all about science and reason, but the more you talk, the more what’s being said between the lines confirms my instincts. Reason, logic, that’s all smoke to cover your real problem (though there are doubtless other issues too), something you don’t want to admit to yourself, let alone to me, Adam, and the rest of the blogosphere.
But you already did once. Remember this comment from my “Ten Things You Don’t Want to Find Out the Hard Way” post way back in September?
I should’ve told you then, but I don’t even know if you’re ready to recieve the truth now. The truth is someone’s given you the impression you’ve gone too far and that God won’t accept you. You feel like he’s rejected you so you’re responding like a child and saying “Oh, yeah! Well, you don’t exist! So there!”
And to boot, you get to feel proud and superior for braving the sandpit. That feels so much better than admitting you don’t know how to get out of it.
I told you the Truth once and you didn’t believe me. At the risk of repeating myself, your Father loves you, Michael. It’s never too late to go Home. He won’t turn His back on You, He’ll take you into His arms and recieve you back as one of His own. It doesn’t matter what you’ve done. It doesn’t matter if you’ve taken his gifts (sex comes to mind) and squandered them for cheap thrills. He loves you and He’s waiting at the gate for you. You don’t have to do a blessed thing. He’s already paid the debt in full and He’s holding out His hand to you. All you have to do is take it.
If you’re not ready for this, I’m sorry, but I’m afraid I don’t see any point in going round and round the same treadmill. Adam’s right about one thing, if nothing else, this conversation doesn’t belong where it can be read by the general public. We all have baggage we don’t want to air before the neighbors. When you’re ready to plumb the recesses of the heart (and if I’m guessing your personality type correct that’s uncharted territory you’re afraid to explore–but Jesus knows it all) and have an honest conversation, email us. (The addys are under the blogging man add and the really bad picture of Santa–er–Adam)