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	<title>Comments on: The Evangelical Self-Destruction</title>
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		<title>By: Adam Graham [Member]</title>
		<link>http://www.adamsweb.us/blog/the_evangelical_self_destruction/comment-page-1/#comment-2378</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Graham [Member]</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2007 06:04:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://adamsweb.us/blog/index.php/a/2007/05/11/the-evangelical-self-destruction/#comment-2378</guid>
		<description>Bubbs, &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
I&#039;m not going to get into a debate on this on the main points of the truth of Joseph Smith as a prophet, only to your points regarding the evidence you used. The Bible, being important, whenever it is used here, I insist on context.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Regarding prophets, you wrote:&lt;br /&gt;

&lt;br&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
And in answer to your first question, I recommend Deuteronomy 18:20: &quot;But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.&quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Well, a couple things to look at here. If we apply this literally, than every prophet has been false save those who haven&#039;t died. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
If we say that it means immediately, than we&#039;ve got to face the fact that Mohammad lived a pretty long life and claimed to have the final revelation, which I would assume the LDS church would disagree with.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
My thing is you have to look at scripture in context and here that means the Holy Bible, and we take a look at Ezekiel 18:4 and 18:20 where it says, &quot;The soul that sinneth, it shall die.&quot; Same word in English and it&#039;s also the same word in Hebrew used. Does that mean that the moment you and I sin we die a physical death? No.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Take a look at Genesis 2:17:&lt;br /&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Did they physically die that day? No. But there&#039;s another death that&#039;s spiritual. The book of Revelations 21:8:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the SECOND DEATH.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
This is a warning to the false prophet of what will happen. What is the test for us to look for? It&#039;s actually answered directly in Deut. 18:21 and 22:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;br /&gt;

And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken ? &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So the test is not whether the prophet dies, because the prophet could be around to test the people (Deut. 13) The test of the prophet is whether what they say comes to past, not whether they keel over.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
(And here&#039;s another thing -- Why would Jehovah mention other gods if there weren&#039;t any? Same thing in the 10 Commandments -- would he have said &quot;Thou shalt know there are no other Gods&quot; if that&#039;s what he meant, rather than having no other gods before him?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Let&#039;s take a look at Joshua 24:16:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
So, by this text, is Joshua saying the gods of Caanaan are real? Because that&#039;s what&#039;s being talked about. I don&#039;t think he does.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
The commandment is against Idolatry. The commandment is not about who God is, but about the duty of his people.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
In Deut. 4:27, 28, the text refers to Gods who are stone and wood:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you. &lt;br /&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men&#039;s hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt; It&#039;s very clear in Deuteronomy and these gods are not real (they neither see, hear, eat, or smell) but he calls them gods. Again in Jeremiah 5:7 God says:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
How shall I pardon thee for this? thy children have forsaken me, and sworn by them that are no GODS: &lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
In the same Chapter in Verse 19, he refers to them as &quot;strange Gods.&quot; So the term &quot;gods&quot; is not reserved for true Gods, it can also be used for false Gods and this is the usual use of the term.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Does not mean your supposition is wrong, but the scripture you cited doesn&#039;t prove what you&#039;re saying. However, like I said, I don&#039;t want to debate this here, because this isn&#039;t what the thread&#039;s really about.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bubbs, </p>
<p>
I&#8217;m not going to get into a debate on this on the main points of the truth of Joseph Smith as a prophet, only to your points regarding the evidence you used. The Bible, being important, whenever it is used here, I insist on context.
</p>
<p>
Regarding prophets, you wrote:</p>
<p></p>
<blockquote><p>
And in answer to your first question, I recommend Deuteronomy 18:20: &#8220;But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.&#8221;
</p></blockquote>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Well, a couple things to look at here. If we apply this literally, than every prophet has been false save those who haven&#8217;t died. 
</p>
<p>
If we say that it means immediately, than we&#8217;ve got to face the fact that Mohammad lived a pretty long life and claimed to have the final revelation, which I would assume the LDS church would disagree with.
</p>
<p>
My thing is you have to look at scripture in context and here that means the Holy Bible, and we take a look at Ezekiel 18:4 and 18:20 where it says, &#8220;The soul that sinneth, it shall die.&#8221; Same word in English and it&#8217;s also the same word in Hebrew used. Does that mean that the moment you and I sin we die a physical death? No.
</p>
<p>
Take a look at Genesis 2:17:</p>
<p></p>
<blockquote><p>
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.</p></blockquote>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Did they physically die that day? No. But there&#8217;s another death that&#8217;s spiritual. The book of Revelations 21:8:
</p>
<p></p>
<blockquote><p>
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the SECOND DEATH.
</p></blockquote>
<p>
</p>
<p>
This is a warning to the false prophet of what will happen. What is the test for us to look for? It&#8217;s actually answered directly in Deut. 18:21 and 22:
</p>
<p></p>
<blockquote><p></p>
<p>And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken ? </p>
<p>When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. 
</p></blockquote>
<p>So the test is not whether the prophet dies, because the prophet could be around to test the people (Deut. 13) The test of the prophet is whether what they say comes to past, not whether they keel over.
</p>
<p></p>
<blockquote><p>
(And here&#8217;s another thing &#8212; Why would Jehovah mention other gods if there weren&#8217;t any? Same thing in the 10 Commandments &#8212; would he have said &#8220;Thou shalt know there are no other Gods&#8221; if that&#8217;s what he meant, rather than having no other gods before him?
</p></blockquote>
<p>
Let&#8217;s take a look at Joshua 24:16:
</p>
<p></p>
<blockquote><p>
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
</p></blockquote>
<p>
</p>
<p>
So, by this text, is Joshua saying the gods of Caanaan are real? Because that&#8217;s what&#8217;s being talked about. I don&#8217;t think he does.  
</p>
<p>
The commandment is against Idolatry. The commandment is not about who God is, but about the duty of his people.
</p>
<p>
In Deut. 4:27, 28, the text refers to Gods who are stone and wood:
</p>
<p></p>
<blockquote><p>
And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you. </p>
<p>
And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men&#8217;s hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. 
</p>
</blockquote>
<p> It&#8217;s very clear in Deuteronomy and these gods are not real (they neither see, hear, eat, or smell) but he calls them gods. Again in Jeremiah 5:7 God says:
</p>
<p></p>
<blockquote><p>
How shall I pardon thee for this? thy children have forsaken me, and sworn by them that are no GODS: </p></blockquote>
<p>
</p>
<p>
In the same Chapter in Verse 19, he refers to them as &#8220;strange Gods.&#8221; So the term &#8220;gods&#8221; is not reserved for true Gods, it can also be used for false Gods and this is the usual use of the term.
</p>
<p>
Does not mean your supposition is wrong, but the scripture you cited doesn&#8217;t prove what you&#8217;re saying. However, like I said, I don&#8217;t want to debate this here, because this isn&#8217;t what the thread&#8217;s really about.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Graham [Member]</title>
		<link>http://www.adamsweb.us/blog/the_evangelical_self_destruction/comment-page-1/#comment-2377</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Graham [Member]</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2007 05:04:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://adamsweb.us/blog/index.php/a/2007/05/11/the-evangelical-self-destruction/#comment-2377</guid>
		<description>First of all, let&#039;s be clear that if people try and turn this into a Mormon-Evangelical debate thread, I&#039;ll close the comments. I really don&#039;t want to go there. There are blogs for that, this ain&#039;t one of them&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
However, I&#039;ve got to respond to a few things. This comment  goes to Nowhere. It sounds like you&#039;ve had a rough experience of some sort.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
I have to say that by your reasoning, you&#039;d be saying we have to be wary of faithful Roman Catholics, because the Pope is considered infallible in matters of doctrine. In fact, this all could have come out of Jack Chick tract on Catholicism and I think it&#039;s absurd to suggest that Mormons should be disqualified as President. Do you think they shouldn&#039;t serve in the Army because the Prophet could order everyone to join Al Qaeda? Even if a Mormon President had any inklings that way, I think the 96-97% of the Congress that isn&#039;t Mormon would have a thing or two to say about that.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First of all, let&#8217;s be clear that if people try and turn this into a Mormon-Evangelical debate thread, I&#8217;ll close the comments. I really don&#8217;t want to go there. There are blogs for that, this ain&#8217;t one of them</p>
<p>
However, I&#8217;ve got to respond to a few things. This comment  goes to Nowhere. It sounds like you&#8217;ve had a rough experience of some sort.
</p>
<p>
I have to say that by your reasoning, you&#8217;d be saying we have to be wary of faithful Roman Catholics, because the Pope is considered infallible in matters of doctrine. In fact, this all could have come out of Jack Chick tract on Catholicism and I think it&#8217;s absurd to suggest that Mormons should be disqualified as President. Do you think they shouldn&#8217;t serve in the Army because the Prophet could order everyone to join Al Qaeda? Even if a Mormon President had any inklings that way, I think the 96-97% of the Congress that isn&#8217;t Mormon would have a thing or two to say about that.
</p></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Bubblehead [Visitor]</title>
		<link>http://www.adamsweb.us/blog/the_evangelical_self_destruction/comment-page-1/#comment-2376</link>
		<dc:creator>Bubblehead [Visitor]</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2007 04:10:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://adamsweb.us/blog/index.php/a/2007/05/11/the-evangelical-self-destruction/#comment-2376</guid>
		<description>Adam,&lt;br /&gt;
  I really appreciate this post.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nowehere,&lt;br /&gt;
  I actually am a faithful member of the LDS Church, and nothing you wrote there applies to me. So which is more likely -- you don&#039;t know what you&#039;re talking about, or I don&#039;t know what I have to do to be a faithful member of my religion? The 12th Article of Faith states: &quot;We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.&quot; The Church President would look silly trying to pull that one over on us by telling us to break a law.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And in answer to your first question, I recommend Deuteronomy 18:20: &quot;But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.&quot;&lt;br /&gt;
(And here&#039;s another thing -- Why would Jehovah mention other gods if there weren&#039;t any? Same thing in the 10 Commandments -- would he have said &quot;Thou shalt know there are no other Gods&quot; if that&#039;s what he meant, rather than having no other gods before him?&lt;br /&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adam,<br />
  I really appreciate this post.</p>
<p>Nowehere,<br />
  I actually am a faithful member of the LDS Church, and nothing you wrote there applies to me. So which is more likely &#8212; you don&#8217;t know what you&#8217;re talking about, or I don&#8217;t know what I have to do to be a faithful member of my religion? The 12th Article of Faith states: &#8220;We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.&#8221; The Church President would look silly trying to pull that one over on us by telling us to break a law.</p>
<p>And in answer to your first question, I recommend Deuteronomy 18:20: &#8220;But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.&#8221;<br />
(And here&#8217;s another thing &#8212; Why would Jehovah mention other gods if there weren&#8217;t any? Same thing in the 10 Commandments &#8212; would he have said &#8220;Thou shalt know there are no other Gods&#8221; if that&#8217;s what he meant, rather than having no other gods before him?</p>
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		<title>By: Nowhere [Visitor]</title>
		<link>http://www.adamsweb.us/blog/the_evangelical_self_destruction/comment-page-1/#comment-2375</link>
		<dc:creator>Nowhere [Visitor]</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2007 03:03:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://adamsweb.us/blog/index.php/a/2007/05/11/the-evangelical-self-destruction/#comment-2375</guid>
		<description>The problem is, that unless you&#039;ve been a faithful latterday saint, you do not understand that you will do LITERALLY anything the prophet asks you to do, including Lie, Cheat, or Steal.

The church flagrantly violates its own tenets, including the need to obey the law; ignoring those laws, even to this day that do not suit it unless they believe they will be exposed for their actions.

It is not bigotry to point out the simple fact that LDS people believe that the prophet cannot lead them astray, because if he did, he would be struck dead.

Where in the bible does it say that a prophet who says something that the Lord doesn&#039;t want him to say will die?  Did Moses die when he struck the rock? He did not.

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints have been conditioned from birth to obey.  To obey.  To obey.  To obey.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem is, that unless you&#8217;ve been a faithful latterday saint, you do not understand that you will do LITERALLY anything the prophet asks you to do, including Lie, Cheat, or Steal.</p>
<p>The church flagrantly violates its own tenets, including the need to obey the law; ignoring those laws, even to this day that do not suit it unless they believe they will be exposed for their actions.</p>
<p>It is not bigotry to point out the simple fact that LDS people believe that the prophet cannot lead them astray, because if he did, he would be struck dead.</p>
<p>Where in the bible does it say that a prophet who says something that the Lord doesn&#8217;t want him to say will die?  Did Moses die when he struck the rock? He did not.</p>
<p>Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints have been conditioned from birth to obey.  To obey.  To obey.  To obey.</p>
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